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considering your

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experience with military and modern

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military the question that a lot of

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people have in their mind when it comes

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to this coronavirus is

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is it potentially a bio weapon so do you

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have any thoughts on that

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the data that's been out there in the

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public so far indicates that um

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it's not i've seen no hard data

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to market as a bio weapon obviously

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there's been

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a massive amount of not just

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you know speculation but

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a lot of conspiracy theory and pointing

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fingers here that and there but

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i've seen no hard data on it and i've

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certainly not seen

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um uh any kind of reporting that would

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lead to that conclusion and what can you

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say about bioweapons generally today is

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this something that

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all countries or the major military

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powers

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experiment with so

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that type of research is um supposed to

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be banned

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uh now the challenge is not everyone

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um follows it uh and that's been one of

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the concerns

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um when you think about uh rogue actors

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out there

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um but at least it appears in this case

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and in particular when you talk about

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the disease itself and its lethality

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um you know it's caught between uh

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being something that is incredibly

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lethal

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to every person that gets it which is

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more typical

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of a bio weapon versus something like

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the common cold

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that is typically not lethal to the host

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what's been so challenging about

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coronavirus is that it

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uh spreads like cold light common flu

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but it has a higher legality rate

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particularly among the elderly which is

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again not one of the things that you

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would normally design

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into a bio weapon um so

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in terms of that to the the outbreak

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pattern

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it doesn't again i've seen no hard data

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on it so

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i certainly wouldn't want to put that

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forward are there

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nations that have in the past worked on

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bioweapons

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absolutely including the united states

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but this is an area of research that is

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not supposed to be going on

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i think one of the concerns that people

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have had is

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um the what was needed to do

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advanced bio-weapon research back during

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the cold war

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uh at a place like um fort dietrich

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which is uh in the united states where

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we did our work

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now that's available to um not just most

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any nation

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but um most any companies even some high

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school lab kits have almost that

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equivalent parallel

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it's a lot like if you think about other

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areas of technology

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the sorts of things that were cutting

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edge and say you know cyber security ten

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years ago

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now they you would describe it as a

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script kitty being able to do it off

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which is basically just following

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uh an easy script so it's it's that

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similar um

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the kind of uh research that was qui

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required to

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work on nuclear weapons uh back in the

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1940s required the

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um you know most brilliant people in the

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entire world

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required a manhattan project style

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national effort

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and now you can see you know the north

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koreas of the world pull it off

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what is the last example of an

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confirmed bio weapon being used oh gosh

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um this isn't my speciality in terms of

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bio weapons

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i there was i believe

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a belief that there was some use of it

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back in

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world war ii uh as um

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particularly one test used by

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germany by nazis and then also

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uh if i recall the history correctly

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there was also

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reports of japan doing some of this

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stuff in manchuria

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again not on scale battlefield use but

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more tests and against prisoners

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um i believe there was also

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rumor milling uh slash intel reporting

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of um accidental release

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uh back in um cold war period like

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during soviet research

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um i can't recall iran iraq war

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um i'm pretty certain that was again

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this is i'm not a bio weapons guy so i

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think if i recall a ron iraq war that

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was all

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um kemp's sorry chemical side mustard

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gas

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style the types of things that we saw in

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um

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uh world war one as an example yeah i

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think there's certainly talk about

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chemicals in syria

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i don't know if it would yeah i i

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i do not recall reporting a biocide

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in syria and again would be something

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that would what more kill you

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instantaneously

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as opposed to creating some type of

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virus

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sorry you said i missed your question

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distinguishing chemical weapons from

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from bio weapons

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yeah just it's basically um i

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literally you know no i'm not saying

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this means you know between

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biology and chemistry uh and

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the effects um uh

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targeting um that person that it comes

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into contact with

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versus some weapons not all uh tends to

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be

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infectious so it spreads across the

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populace um

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again there's there's wide ranges of

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these technologies so when you're

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thinking about

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um chemical it's from something um like

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tear gas that isn't necessarily lethal

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just

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stings the eyes in the face to something

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that um

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can be an agent that affects your nerves

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and kills instantaneously

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um same thing on on bio uh

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bio it might go be targeted against

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humans but there's also other variants

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that might go after

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an ecosystem or something like that so

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what do you make

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of these allegations that china

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is making that the u.s is behind this i

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mean

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essentially accusing the us of planting

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a bio weapon

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so what we have going on

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both by china targeting

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its own population but

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china also targeting the world and

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sadly enough also coming from some parts

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of um the trump administration is a

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campaign of dis and misinformation

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about it um about the outbreak about

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the um dangers of it uh

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and so um on the china side

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um and i actually uh published an

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article in defense one in atlantic on

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this

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back in early february that basically

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what we had was a team that translated

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what was happening

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on china's internet chinese social media

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and then analyzed it how were they

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talking about the

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um outbreak uh and what were the

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measures that the government was doing

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trying to shape that conversation

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and it's important to go back and say

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again early february

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so anyone who claims uh

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how could we have known how could we

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have known that china wasn't telling the

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truth or that this was much worse than

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we thought

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this was being not just talked about

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and we now know inside us intelligence

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reports going back to january

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it was all out in the open in early

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february

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uh and that's the that's the sad and

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that's the shame of this is that 60

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other nations

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besides america watched this and

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prepared for it whether it was the

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japans and the taiwans to the

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australians

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unfortunately we did not but so what

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china what the chinese government was

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doing

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well back in um january early february

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was followed a strategy of a couple of

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tracks one

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was censorship so uh

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the early stories of the outbreak

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including by the very first

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doctors uh that were discovering it and

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talking about it online

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uh the government uh basically brought

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them

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and actually issued a warning via its

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public safety bureau sort of the

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equivalent of the police

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of saying people that are talking about

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this and sharing falsehoods

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about the outbreak of this virus need to

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stop so one

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is censorship the second part of it

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a quick question about censorship was

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that with the intent of it

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having its own people not learn about it

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or the rest of the world

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uh it's this is all targeting inside

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china

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and its own people um basically what you

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have and again

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a very sad and frustrating parallel to

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the u.s

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is that the chinese government

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made a choice between

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its own regime interests and public

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health and it chose its regime interests

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first

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outbreak

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of the disease second was

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false and for as as they could not

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contain it anymore and it became more

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and more evident

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and people in china were getting

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frustrated about

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the lack of response and that there um

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was not enough medical equipment the

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hospitals weren't ready

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sound familiar uh they began to push

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false information fake news about

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the response being better than it was so

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for example in the article we um had the

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example

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of a senior chinese government official

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was um pushing out news stories that

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were then picked up by regime friendly

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media sources talking about new

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hospitals

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being built but the image that he was

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posting was actually of an apartment

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building

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that had been built months earlier

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there's a parallel on the u.s side of

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you know the the false claims of tests

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happening that they were not being

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available when they weren't

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medical breakthroughs etc etc the third

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thing

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that happened again as it expanded

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further

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was blame casting blaming others

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for it and blaming others for the

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reaction

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to it so early on on the chinese

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government for example

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it wasn't initially you can track again

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this is all out in the open

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it wasn't initially blaming us for the

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outbreak

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it was blaming us for hysteria

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about it and uh closing of borders and

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that we were

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targeting china and the like so that's

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all china targeting

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its own populace and again this was

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widely talked about widely known

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early february this is why nations like

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south korea taiwan japan

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australia all the ones that weathered

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this better that have not had the effect

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that we've had in the us

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they all watched this and said we know

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what's coming we need to get prepared

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so as just to be clear because you make

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an important board there

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what specifically did they do to prepare

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they had

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everything from um widespread testing

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available uh which is then key to be

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able to

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um uh figure out who has it who doesn't

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have it

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implement um isolation for those people

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and their family members and network

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that have it uh

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and um they had measures of public

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hygiene

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available that um and implemented that

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we did not have here

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um shut down to the extent

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of say europe or us so then so

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let me pause there um it's everything

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from uh

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very simple measures of uh people and

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um transportation hubs uh checking

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passports

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um wearing gloves to wider distribution

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of mass um to then travel restrictions

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to then uh social um

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uh limit movement limitations but like

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to give you

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you know things that we we're just now

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as you and i are talking about

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thinking about putting into place which

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then means that we will need

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weeks more to put them into place um

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they had a drive-through testing

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facilities

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um available so that the hospitals

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weren't flooded but it's also things

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again not just testing it's um

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having mass having um uh the the

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hospitals

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ready for it etc all the things that

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have allowed

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south korea japan australia etc

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to weather this storm in a way that

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saved

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not thousands but multiple

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you know multiply that thousands of

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lives but also not have the economic hit

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that we've had here

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um but again so the circle back to where

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we were that's what china was doing

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internally and again you can see the

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parallels in the discourse

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unfortunately that happened in our

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system then

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as the coronavirus spreads

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globally you see a

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push on one side

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to blame china and they have a lot to

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blame for

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as a way of changing the conversation

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about the lack of preparation here

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um and you can see sort of the weird

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controversy over

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what to call it wuhan china virus which

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was a

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literally a deliberate conversation that

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they wanted to have

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rather than having a conversation about

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the fact that

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unlike in 60 other nations we did not

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have widespread testing ready

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etc that's our push

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in turn china has been making a

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push to displace blame and point fingers

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for

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origin and spread and they have

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um pushed the blame pointing the finger

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at everyone from

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um taiwan to italy

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to the united states and it's um

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one of the lessons that we pulled from

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the

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war that looked at

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online disinformation campaigns and one

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of the lessons that um

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russia was very much a pioneer in this

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is that you

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um don't push one alternative story

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you bury the truth underneath a sea

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of lies even if the stories that you

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push

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are contradictory so go back to what

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i've seen of china saying no no no maybe

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it was

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they both can't be

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it's got to be one or the other right

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but that's not the point the point is to

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and one of the accusations specifically

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though was that

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it was the u.s military that planted

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this

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00:15:10,629 --> 00:15:07,040
right again um i have seen zilch

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uh data uh anything

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um that i would consider viable at this

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time to

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say that and in fact if you would carry

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that forward

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um you would really want to go okay if

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that's

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the narrative then why would the u.s

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military and the broader united states